In Reclaiming practice, the adage, As within, so without; as above, so below, is often invoked. Does this phrase relate to shamanism?

Sandy: Since in shamanism we experience everything as interconnected, whatever you do to one aspect of the web, you do to yourself. Whatever is happening for you, it will make an impact in the world, and vice versa. The understanding that you can't really separate, there are no individuals, has always been part of shamanism--shamans got that from years of initiation that broke down their egoic barriers so that they carried the principle of unity in their very bodies. In modern-day culture, where we've over-emphasized the process of individuation, some of that classical shamanic teaching is being lost; people use the words but don't know what it actually means in their bodies.

So "As above, so below, As within, so without," is part of classical shamanism. It's part of alchemy, Christianity, paganism, Judaism, the Muslim religion. It's quantum physics, part of the Hindu tradition--there is no tradition that does not understand that our outer world is a reflection of our inner world.

Lenore: Is Medicine for the Earth shamanism?

Sandy: I drew Medicine for the Earth from all mystical traditions. I looked for the common mystical practices that came from shamanism, the mystical eastern traditions, mystical Christianity, the Kabala, alchemy, Daoism, trying to answer the question, How did ancient people ccreate miracles? There are so many stories in different traditions, I tried to find the common elements that all these traditions practiced, and put them at the service of the environmental crisis today on our planet. I believe all world traditions have a common root, everybody split into their different languaging and systems, over time, but there's one common root. So, Medicine for the Earth is not pure shamanism, but reflects the core paradigm of interconnectedness that all mystical traditions share.

Lenore: Would you talk about the evolution of your own shamanic practice? You've said your spirit allies directed you to step into a collaborative relationship, rather than a parent-child relationship. Can you relate this to the spiritual evolution that people are being asked to make at this time?

Sandy: Classic shamanism involved a relationship with the spirits for the purpose of survival. In modern cultures we tend to look for authority figures, and since shamanism doesn't have worldly human authorities, we've made our spirits into authority figures. In classic shamanism there was fear of making a mistake, spiritually--of moving out of harmony--and negative consequences befalling individuals, families and communities. But the spirits were not seen as authorities as we see them today. We have been taking a child-like stance, and it is time to grow up (laughter)! As adults we experience our own potential, our own power. If we want the planet to survive what we're doing to it, we really have to take responsibility for how we live our lives, and also see that we have the same power the spirits do.

As above, so below; as within, so without--the power that the spirits around us have is the same power we have inside ourselves. A really important part of my work is trying to get people to look at their own personal power, their own divine nature.
Humans see we're part of everything and tap into our own creative potential with our hearts. Getting into a heart space, a loving space, a harmonious space, we create something different in our outer world.

So, we need to teach people how to experience their inter-relatedness with all things, to remember in our bodies--not as a mental construct--that this is a unified universe, and that we're not just form. This is something shamans have always known from their near death experiences and their initiatory practices: We're not form, we're light, we're energy--the same thing that quantum physics is trying to teach us today, shamans have been teaching for thousands of years: The power to change the world is inside each and every one of us, right now.

We have created a tremendous amount of toxicity on the planet, how can we actually transmute that? The practice of shamanism needs to look at the current problem, which is pollution--inner pollution and outer pollution--and that means taking responsibility in our lives and stepping up to our own power.

For me it�s been really important to bring through the principle of collaboration and cooperation with the spirits--not saying "Mommy, Daddy, we messed up our room, will you come in and clean it up?"--but for us to do our part of the work by finding harmony inside ourselves and cleaning up our own inner space. We need to work in partnership with the spirits in our inner work and in our outer work, but not abdicate our own power.

Lenore: Maybe this whole global crisis is our culture's initiation into adulthood.

Sandy: Right. Right! Absolutely!

Lenore: Reclaiming rejects the patriarchal split between matter and spirit, and between heaven and earth. Like shamans, they believe the earth is sacred. In Medicine for the Earth you emphasize the necessity of working with the ego. Is the ego a function of the patriarchal psyche that has split from the earth, and split from the web of creation?

Sandy: I don't know if we could attach the ego to the patriarchy or not, but the nature of the ego is to experience separation. When you're in a completely unified state--if you have a near-death experience or you work with a vision plant that really blasts you into a state of unity--there is no ego. The ego's perception of separation is pure illusion, and because of the process of individuation that we keep feeding, this illusion has been strengthened, and what's been lost is the experiential knowledge that there really is only one energy, and that you are it, you're part of it.

Now, we did come to Earth to experience being in form, so what we really need right now is to come into balance. It's not about going into a cave and achieving such a unified state that you can't function in life, and it's not about being a self that's so separate that you don't care what happens to the trees, the animals, or the people on the other side of the world because you believe they're not "you".

We have to remember the unity of all things, that there is just one wave of energy that we're all connected to, and the ego gives us the experience of being able to truly enjoy the earth--it�s through the ego that all the senses are connected, so we can taste and smell and feel and hear and see--we�re here to experience beauty and to manifest spirit in physical form. I think the ego is the part of us that gives us the experience of time and space so that we can function here.

The problem--and this is where the patriarchal structure comes in--is that the ego is completely in control.

Lenore: Right. Enthroned.

Sandy: Right, and that's part of the patriarchy, this issue of control and power-over.

Lenore: So, the ego is essential to living here, it's just a matter of where its place is.

Sandy: Yes, if we don't respect its proper place, I think it's going to destroy our possibilities of living here.

Lenore: You've talked about the need to leave your egoic sense of self behind in order to practice Medicine for the Earth. Does this mean one must transcend the material realm? Transcend our material identification with the body and the mundane? If this is the case, does this practice feed the split between matter and spirit?

Sandy: In Medicine for the Earth we practice actually experiencing completely, physically, our energetic unity with everything, and love and harmony--again, harmony within creates harmony without.

If you keep seeing everything as form, and you're trying to heal things, you're working in a real Newtonion way of seeing--you'll see this ill person, or this contaminated water,as separate from the perfection of the universe. So, while there might be perfection in other things, because this water is contaminated, it's no longer perfect; because this person has cancer, they're no longer perfect--that's over-identifying with form, and believing separation, and it prevents miracles. So in Medicine for the Eath, I'm not promoting separation of form and spirit--rather, we see that everything is perfect and divine, and in light, right now.

When the practitioner of Medicine for the Earth transfigures, actually shapeshifts into their own divine nature, then the water also does that, the ill client does that, and they're actually breaking down this over-identification with form.

Lenore: It seems that what happens with fixation on form is that we create frozen energy, instead of being able to be with the reality of constant change--

Sandy: Right--

Lenore: So when we see that sick person or that contaminated space, and when we insist on looking at them as form, part of what we're doing is we're insisting on something that's reified--

Sandy: Right, and I think that we keep solidifying the illness by over-identifying with everything as form, whereas if you can get into a spiritual space and see that everything is energy, and everything is perfection, it allows transmutation to begin, and miracles to happen.

Lenore: Now, you first developed Medicine for the Earth from your desire to right the environmental imbalance that humans had wrought upon the earth. I've also seen you apply the practice to righting social imbalances. For example, at the gathering that coincided with the anniversary of 9/11, we focused on transmuting human beliefs and attitudes that cause war. Could you talk about how the spiritual practice of collective transfiguration might bring healing and rebalancing to the human web?

Sandy: Simply stated, the practice of transfiguration brings people the experience of their own divinity, their own unity with everything. When you break down the ego and experience everything as unity, love comes in. And going with the principle of as above, so below; as within, so without--if you're in a state of love and experiencing harmony, and experiencing yourself and everything around you as light, energy--then healing is going to come in, whether the imbalance is a global issue, or chemical pollution.

If every spiritual tradition, and the physicists, are right, then the natural effect of creating a harmonious inner world is going to be a harmonious outer world, a different creation, a different manifestation of our outer world.

I really do believe that everybody out there has a piece of the puzzle, and one of the pieces of the puzzle I'm real excited about bringing through is this process of transfiguration into experiencing our own divinity. All the reports I get from people practicing transfiguration is that their lives are becoming right--what they're manifesting in their lives, their health, everything seems to be changing for people. And I know this is really true for me. And if we change ourselves, the outer world will reflect that back.

Lenore: Could you give a one or two sentence definition of what you mean when you say "divinity"?

Sandy: Divinity, going back to the Aramaic, is experiencing union with everything. Divinity is letting go of your form and what keeps you feeling separate, going into a place of union, of experiencing yourself as absolutely perfect energy and light.

Lenore: A couple years ago when I first heard you talk about wanting to spread the Medicine for the Earth work beyond shamanic circles, I suggested reaching out to activists, and you had some reservations about that. What were they?

Sandy: I'm actually starting to combine Medicine for the Earth with activism in my own way. I've asked Medicine for the Earth teachers to teach people how to write letters to the editor, not from a place of anger, but from a place of remembering it's not "us vs. them," that it's "we." We have to be able to communicate concerns and wake people up to what's happening, without coming from a place of anger and an "us vs. them" stance. In some of the activism I've seen, people are so entrenched in anger, and there's the "us vs. them" mode--

Lenore: Are you talking about currently, things that you've seen?

Sandy: Yes, and in my life, watching activists. Back in the 1960s I was an activist against the Vietnam War. Often part of the process of activist groups is to identify as an "us" that is against "them." There's the potential for creating another war, just on a different level.

Lenore: Right, right--

Sandy: So, in Medicine for the Earth there is no "us" vs. "them." I'm asking, how do we start to built a bridge from this work, which I think is essential, to people who are engaged in social activism, while keeping to the principles of saying, It's all us, and cultivating anger never got anybody anywhere. We need to focus more on education: It's amazing to me how many Americans are just simply not aware of our environmental crisis. As activists, how do we educate government officials and the general population to how we're feeling, without going to war with them? And that's where I always think the balance is tricky, that might be where some of my reservations might have come in.

Lenore: I think that during the so-called "me decade," where people were doing a lot of so-called navel-gazing, that actually people were doing a lot of spiritual work. My perception is that it really has impacted what's happening in the social movements right now. Recently I was telling someone how, after 9/11, my impulse was to pray for Bush, for healing, and she said, "Yeah, I remember when Reagan was in, and I used to visualize a bullet in his forehead, and when this stuff started coming up I started going there again, and I realized that I couldn't do that any more, that that wasn't going to help."

Sandy: Yes, I've been presenting at the Bioneers Conference now for two years, and I definitely see a real shift, there's a different consciousness, a different understanding of working together, a different perception about bringing spirituality into the work. So I feel real hopeful, if we can learn how to focus our energies together, like Osama ben Laden has taught his people to do, I think that we can create a huge, positive change on the planet.

We just don't know how to focus, that's one reason I think it really is important to bring spiritual work to all groups who want to see a different consciousness on the planet today. We could really do amazing things if we learned how to focus our energies together. It doesn't mean that we have to use the same languaging, it doesn't mean we have to believe in the same methods, it just means focusing our energies together.

Lenore: Right. And again, I've seen some of those efforts with the Reclaiming Collective demonstrating at some of these global meetings--like the WTO, the World Monetary Fund, all those things--where they have to deal with those differences when they're out on the streets, like here comes the Black Wedge, and differences may arise around strategies like property destruction--so, yeah, it's challenge a lot of different people on a lot of different fronts are grappling with: How do you keep your own integrity and also collaborate when you may have a very different view on a certain point?

Sandy: I got burnt out on being an anarchist (laughter)--

Lenore: Is that what you were?

Sandy: Right, and seeing that nothing seemed to be changing out there in the world forced me into looking at where I can create change. Again, if you go back to all the mystical traditions, all believe that everything manifests first on the spiritual level before it manifests on the physical. So, how do we all go back and work on the spiritual level, so that we can see a different manifestation on the physical?

Lenore: Right.

Sandy: And that's where I see that we have tremendous power, that's where I feel we can focus our energies together--the way we focus our prayers, our thoughts, our feelings about the preciousness of life. That focus alone can create change without doing anything on the manifest level. At the same time, what we have to do on the manifest level is keep communicating, keep making people aware of what's really going on.

Lenore: So you don't think just doing internal work is enough?

Sandy: It could be, it definitely could be, but I think because so many people are unaware that there's an issue--

Lenore: There are not enough of us yet--

Sandy: Right. Work on both planes has to go on at the same time. We want to get more people focusing--the more people focusing on change, the stronger the power's going to be. So many people are unaware of what's happening right now--one of the blunt statements I feel I need to put out there is, "The sun gives us live, earth gives us life, water gives us life, air gives us life--and we�ve contaminated everything that gives us life." (laughter) I mean, I don't think people understand that these elements actually bring us life, and we've destroyed them. People are completely unaware--in this country, it's different in other countries--but in the U.S., people are completely unaware of what's happening environmentally. Europeans realize that Americans don't know what's going on, and Europeans are afraid of the consequences of American ignorance.

Lenore: I've been really feeling lately, on an energetic, almost visceral level, what feels like an energetic struggle between these paradigms, and between these world views--I mean, I just feel it, I don't even have to talk to anybody about it, or read anything, I can just pick it up energetically, you know? It feels very tenuous, which way things will go--

Sandy: Yeah--

Lenore: It just feels very, very up.

Sandy: Right, right. I agree. I think it is really up.

Lenore: Since I first became involved in the Medicine for the Earth practice, I've fantasized about thousands of activists circling a WTO or World Bank meeting and transfiguring en masse, surrounding those in the meeting with perfect love. Could you comment on this fantasy of mine (laughter)?

Sandy: I think it would be great! I mean, I had a similar fantasy recently, of just getting everybody outside, all of us, transfiguring and toning for peace at the same time. I think it would be great to realize your fantasy.

Lenore: I was reading on Starhawk's web site that there was a meeting of the IMF in New York a couple of months ago and--you know, 9/11 was a real blow to the anti-globalization movement, there was a real backlash-- activists were told: You shouldn't raise any criticisms of the establishment--so it was very difficult, there was a lot of clamping down on what kind of demonstrating was allowed, and where, all that business.

Sandy: That's great--

Lenore: Yeah, and because it was totally unplanned, there were no police, no one knew anyone would do a spiral dance in Grand Central Station. It sounded really very powerful. There were all these people passing through the station witnessing and asking, What is going on?

Sandy: And the point is, the way Bush is able to get away with anything he wants to right now is by planting those seeds, "If you say anything against me, no matter what I'm saying about destroying life, it means you're being anti-," you know--

Lenore: "You're a terrorist" now, almost--

Sandy: Yeah, and that's a real scary thing, because what I'm real aware of is that we no longer live in a democracy. I mean, we haven't for a long time, but now it's really here. And it's scary that people are supporting that kind of stance, because it's an excuse for being able to destroy life. Not only other people, but look at how Bush now has been able to open up the national forests for mining and logging, where that leads us to.

Lenore: It's very scary. It's terrifying.

Sandy: But let's do our spiritual work. That's the place where we still have power, that's a place where we'll always have power. It is a place, a practice, that cannot be taken from us.

Lenore: I really appreciated what you said at on of the Medicine for the Earth gatherings, you were talking about people craving security and safety, and you said, "Well, there just isn't any! In the physical realm there isn't any, so we may as well just forget it!" (laughter)

Sandy: If we wanted to be safe, we shouldn't have come here! (laughter)

Lenore: It's so true! It's very profound! (laughter) Yeah, that's really true!

Sandy: It is!

Lenore: The only place you can really be safe is in your heart, it's really true.

Sandy: This is recognizing that you're spirit and you're not form, that the spiritual plane is the only place you can find safety. The spirit can't be hurt, only the form.

Lenore: I also remember after 9/11, when there were a lot of vicious statements about patriotism, and this clamp-down on any dissent, Starhawk wrote a wonderful thing, she said, "Any good witch can see that a spell is being cast to shut down dissent."

Sandy: Right--

Lenore: And she raised the need to weave a counter-spell, and that that can be done, if you�re aware of what's happening. If you don't just fall asleep under the spell.

Sandy: Right. And that's what I feel, that a lot of people have fallen under the spell, largely because they don't know what's going on. We need to wake them up and actually say to people, "The earth brings us life, air brings us life, water brings us life, the sun brings us life, and it's all contaminated." This is a place where I think we can start breaking the spell, because the elements are actually something people can see. No one can say that water isn't contaminated, and people know that the illnesses they're experiencing are coming from the contamination of the earth, the water, the food they're eating. I think we have to find ways to wake people up from the spell without engaging in attacks on the administration, since those only perpetuate the same problematic energy dynamic.

Lenore: The other intuition that persists in me is that there must be some connection between the Medicine for the Earth approach and the incredibly spirit-based political practices of Mahatma Gandhi, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and Subcommandante Marcos in contemporary Chiapas. These men, regardless of their human foibles, embodied love, refused to hate, and were and are very powerful in their connection with spirit. They were or are able to raise the vibrational level of political movements for liberation. Comments?

Sandy: They all recognized the spiritual realms, while at the same time educating people and teaching people that anger was not the solution, that there are other solutions. They also succeeded in keeping people inspired, and not in a place of fear.

Lenore: I was struck by how they seemed to refuse to go into "us vs. them"--

Sandy: Right--

Lenore: They said, It isn't going to work for us to hate these people, it's not gonna work for us to harm these people. The goal is brotherhood--that's the only way we're really going to become free--

Sandy: Exactly. We've already seen that the "us vs. them" doesn't work--We're finding another solution.

Lenore: How do we reach beyond the divisions between spiritual people of many different cultures and faith traditions around the globe, all of whom are praying and working to heal the world in a myriad of ways? How can we earth-based folks successfully collaborate with those who practice the religions that wrought the destruction of our ancestors? I think that�s a real issue for some people--How can I work with these really patriarchal people who are still practicing these horrible things?

Sandy: By keeping a clear intention. If we can remember that the intention is to promote life and harmony and peace, and realize that every prayer, no matter how anybody�s doing it, is creating a healing energy field in the world. Again, when we let go of the form we can see how we�re unified. The unity comes from our shared intention: The bottom line intention of all the prayers is wanting life to continue in a good way. In experiencing the place of unity of intention, we heal divisions of form. We need to stop focusing on how we're different, and start focusing on how we�re the same. That we're actually together creating a field of healing for the earth.

Lenore: So again, it's making a counter-spell. It's countering a spell of separation and division; remembering we choose where we focus our attention and our energy, always.

Sandy: Right. And again, that's the only way that the shadow forces have been able to stay in power, by keeping the brighter forces divided. And what we need to decide at this particular point in time is if we want to keep feeding that division, which keeps the shadow forces in power. And if we dont, then we have to start feeding the unity, the unified heart.

Lenore: Right. Well, I've been finding myself speaking out against bigotry towards Christians lately (laughter).

Sandy: Well, yeah. There is a lot of ignorance. And there are a lot of people who will always go with the Bushes of the world, because they really do believe that that's how they're going to stay safe. So, let's let go of trying to convert everybody, let's try to feed and inspire the people who want to create something different on the planet. At the same time we need to realize that a lot of people are in a fearful place because they've only been educated in the principles of separation. We may not be able to do anything about those people, but we can unify the hearts of those who know that something different is possible.

Lenore: What I've been noticing in myself, sometimes, is an odd kind of excitement and optimism--

Sandy: Right, yeah--

Lenore: --feeling like these are really incredible times, when there's a real opportunity. When I feel the energetic struggle between the paradigms, I sometimes feel almost giddy, excited, like we could turn a really, really big corner right now.

Sandy: Yes, I feel exactly the same way: Incredibly excited about the possibilities, and I think that's one of the keys. It's so easy right now to say, Well, I've done all this work, and look at the world, it seems like everything's getting worse. But we are, collectively, at a real choice point, consciously, on the planet right now. So this is the time when we should really be doing the work, feeding the choice of the unified heart.

© Copyright 2002 Lenore Norrgard. All Rights Reserved.